tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post638588100313714193..comments2022-11-07T04:13:16.647-08:00Comments on Bookends Farm: Learning to Be BraveBookends Farmhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11097973354681584986noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-53487093720519484662019-03-22T13:20:53.393-07:002019-03-22T13:20:53.393-07:00WONDERFUL!! I love how you were able to adapt it ...WONDERFUL!! I love how you were able to adapt it for your horse and your situation and you had success!! This makes me very happy and I thank you for sharing and following up. Bookends Farmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11097973354681584986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-71991507680747338772019-03-22T11:15:47.377-07:002019-03-22T11:15:47.377-07:00Hi Jane,
I wanted to give you a short update on ...Hi Jane, <br /><br />I wanted to give you a short update on our "going for walks" projects. I ended up by combining Alex's 300 peck pigeon exercise (or if you like building duration by counting the steps and slowly increasing the number of steps between click+treat) and your approach to use the mat spot to reinforce the whole walking and slowly extend the distance. And it worked so really great! I'm very pleased because the pattern seems to be very predictable for Lucky so his mugging/touching me (his way of expressing stress/too low rates of reinforcement) is getting less and less. We are going for walks of about 50 minutes by now and he is very comfortable and safe at any moment although the environment around the barn is very challenging. And how proud he is when I finally put his mat on the ground and he knows it's playtime! He was already quite reliable and safe to take out for walks in the last years but was never as relaxed. Also, he sometimes called his friends or "suggested" to take every intersection that would take us home. He does not do this any more at all. Now he waits for me to go right, left, whererever, and is always willing to follow me. That is so much more pleasant for both of us.<br /><br />The only difficult thing for me is counting the steps - very good training for a human mind! Sometimes I keep counting my own steps after our walks because it becomes so natural. I'm sure I will be able to fade this out with the time, but I think it really helped me to be systematic and predictable for my horse. And it was a way to reinforce him in between. As he is insuline resistant, I cannot use grazing as a reinforcer on our walks so this seems to be a good alternative for us.<br /><br />Thank you so much for sharing this wonderful approach with us.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00421553664486420301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-7382975747497248912019-03-08T12:02:42.058-08:002019-03-08T12:02:42.058-08:00HI Claudia, Your response meant a lot to me. I re...HI Claudia, Your response meant a lot to me. I really value people who take horses who appear brave and offering them opportunities to express themselves, even when it means our own goals or experiences might have to change. I hope that our experiences help you and your gelding to get out into the world a little more, feeling safe and comfortable. JaneBookends Farmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11097973354681584986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-67195904373098783362019-02-27T08:12:57.996-08:002019-02-27T08:12:57.996-08:00Hi Jane, I also listened to the podcast and I got...Hi Jane, I also listened to the podcast and I got very encouraged to try using this method with my 13-year-old gelding. He is a former Parelli-trained riding school horse and he was very shut down when I got him 4 and a half years ago. As someone returning to horses in my late thirties after 20 years of having no contact to horses, I didn't realize this at the time. I just assumed he was "good" and you could do anything with him - go for walks, go for three-hour rides on our own, I was never worried. There were signs early on that HE was actually worried, although he still always complied and did what I asked. It's a long story but to cut the chase, at some point I decided to give him his voice back and not just keep forcing my will on him, doing positive reinforcement training and stopping riding (I thought for a couple of weeks, but we're going on two years now). Once allowed to say no, he said it a lot and we got to the point where I couldn't leave the yard anymore and when I did and I pushed him too far, he would completely lose it and remain over threshold until we got back. I got us into a few rather unpleasant or even dangerous situations that way. We moved yards after four years last summer and I wanted to give him the time he needed to settle in. However, he remains on high alert most of the time and I haven't been able to take him for walks away from his herd to the point where he couldn't see them anymore or again, he would freak out. I love this zone system with the different days and their different focus and I did my very first session today, so zone 1, day 1. It would be so great if we could manage to work our way further and further away from the barn. I have definitely been unpredictable to him and not been able to give him the trust and safety that he needs to feel once he leaves his herd. It would be fantastic if this new approach worked for him and it can't hurt to give it a try. We have nothing to lose anyway, because we're basically stuck on the yard at this point. I feel so encouraged by your account of your training with Percy and if this worked for him, it might as well work for us, right? I'll let you know whether we are making progress in a couple of weeks. Thank you so much for sharing your story! Claudiawirekittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17818636993733111596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-84799182588498029642019-02-25T03:15:43.182-08:002019-02-25T03:15:43.182-08:00Hi,
Here is how I plan my weeks. We're ready ...Hi,<br /><br />Here is how I plan my weeks. We're ready for zone three now. I just love it. https://1drv.ms/w/s!AtQAph5BTNF_hiDQwP6SWCGlLJ0NHilde Ceciliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04861650972111305073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-58112244940111149792019-02-22T13:16:30.620-08:002019-02-22T13:16:30.620-08:00Perfect! I understand now and love the really spe...Perfect! I understand now and love the really specific information that the cue for the 2nd behavior should be given at the exact moment you would have clicked. I did not appreciate that point before.<br /><br />I will let you know how we progress and thanks again for sharing this as it is especially important for my 2 geldings and their temperment! Hope the rest of your winter is less snowy! <br /><br />Rosemary<br /><br />Rosemarynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-53900484908926726932019-02-22T05:24:59.770-08:002019-02-22T05:24:59.770-08:00Hi Rosemary,
Thanks for the question and opportuni...Hi Rosemary,<br />Thanks for the question and opportunity to clarify.<br />One of the things I include in this process is requests for behaviors other than Foundation Lesson behaviors. I call them "new" behaviors, although they aren't brand new, just newer to him than Foundation lessons. I use the examples of stepping over rails, lining up at a mounting block or stationing at a boat bumper dropped in the snow. <br />On day 4, I ask for just one of these behaviors and click treat that for several repetitions. So I might take the boat bumper out and walk away from him several times in different directions while he stands and stations at the boat bumper. There is a photo of that in the post.<br />On day 5, I use a different "new" behavior, such as stepping over a rail. But instead of clicking and treating each time he steps over, I build a 2 unit chain, by reinforcing the step over with a request for a foundation behavior and clicking and reinforcing that. <br />You and your horse would need to both be familiar with chains to utilize this, of course. Sometimes a "chain" is called a "sequence". The terms are not universally defined. They vary in that one means the behaviors are always done in the same order and the other means the order can vary. I was taught that a chain means a series of behaviors in which the order or even behaviors included can vary. The important bit is that the cue functions as a reinforcer for the previous behavior so that you don't need to click and treat each one. <br />Specifically, on day 5, if I decide to do stepping over a rail as the "new" behavior, then instead of clicking and treating him for stepping over, I cue a Foundation Lesson behavior at the exact moment I would have clicked. I then click and treat that. So maybe as he steps cleanly over the rail with his last foot, I hold out a hand for him to target. As soon as he touches my hand, I click and treat that. <br />In order to build and use chains, you need to understand how and why they work: behaviors must get easier, they must use behaviors with a long history of reinforcement, and they must have been taught with positive reinforcement. That's the way they are able to function. <br />I'm not sure if I gave you enough information or too much but thanks for the chance to make it clearer for anyone else who might have been confused!<br />JaneBookends Farmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11097973354681584986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-69494146220924366432019-02-21T18:42:50.785-08:002019-02-21T18:42:50.785-08:00Hi Jane:
Again, thanks for your wonderful idea a...Hi Jane:<br /><br /><br />Again, thanks for your wonderful idea and for sharing it. It is something I have started with both of my geldings. <br />Question about day 5. I am not clear what you mean by you do 2 units, C/T and include a new behavior (not the one just done the day before (4)). Can you explain this? Thanks again and I will let you know how we are progressing. We will be out of the barn tomorrow!<br /><br />Rosemary<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14806959632617043724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-30971471901137959052019-02-21T18:17:53.563-08:002019-02-21T18:17:53.563-08:00Oh thank you for the kind comments, Gwen. Spins un...Oh thank you for the kind comments, Gwen. Spins under saddle are not fun so I don't blame you for staying on the ground for now. I hope this will help you reach your goal of riding when it is right. Bookends Farmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11097973354681584986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-68199719158475753812019-02-21T18:03:52.190-08:002019-02-21T18:03:52.190-08:00Jane
Oh I have read your post over and over. It al...Jane<br />Oh I have read your post over and over. It all makes sense and so encouraging to us all. Yes I have a Perch TB and we live in the woods. It is a challenge but Brice is not extreme. A birds voice or a crackle in the wood can make him spin. I do not ride him at all. I want to one day when it is right. I will keep pressing on and now I feel so encouraged. <br />Thank you so much<br />GwenGwen Quonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-45896999823095823512019-02-12T05:28:26.008-08:002019-02-12T05:28:26.008-08:00Hi Kim, I'm sorry you've had to deal with ...Hi Kim, I'm sorry you've had to deal with this as well. Winter was always more challenging for Percy's mother too. It's hard when you feel you have to just write off so many days due to weather! I really hope this gives you something to work with. Each horse may need his or her own adaptations but I would love to know how it goes. Please keep me posted! <br />JaneBookends Farmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11097973354681584986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-39024717842335649702019-02-11T19:22:06.152-08:002019-02-11T19:22:06.152-08:00Hello Jane,
This post could not be more timely. ...Hello Jane,<br /><br />This post could not be more timely. I also follow Alexandra Kurland, and I also have a horse that LIVES at threshold. Even in the riding ring, she has to stop and stare and the woods that are a full kilometer away from us, and she does this constantly. Also, any movement can cause a spook. This is a horse that is scared of everything, and I just can't seem to get her to relax in any environment during the winter. Summertime is much better but winters are often a write off for training since I can't hold her attention very well.<br /><br />This gives me a plan on how to get her out and about a bit more, once the weather improves a bit. I will only be able to do weekends until the days get longer since I typically get to the barn at 7:00 pm each night and am restricted to the indoor arena (which is also a pretty terrifying place, I typically do a half hour of mat work at liberty to settle her and get her calm enough for learning something - this work follows a very strict and predictable routine).<br /><br />I could write a book about this mare, I have never seen a horse so reactive and on edge despite 2 years of clicker training. I moved her last April to a barn with an all natural environment to help her relax, and she has improved slightly (herd life, hay available 24 x 7 on a track system). She is so fearful that being in the barn is scary, the riding ring is scary, the indoor ring is scary, she is on full alert most of the time!<br /><br />You are the first clicker trainer I have found so far that has a similar sounding horse, and I'm so grateful to have found this blog post. Thank you very much for sharing.<br /><br />Kim and TashKimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453717338305739768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-12171862424514505242019-02-11T06:05:54.789-08:002019-02-11T06:05:54.789-08:00What a wonderful response Hilde! You are absolutel...What a wonderful response Hilde! You are absolutely right that a horse does not need to be in the extremely sensitive category in order to be concerned about going out in the world. There are many factors which can contribute to the issue. Your horse is lucky that you understand that even though she is calm and relaxed at home, going further is a different situation. I am so glad you've been inspired to set up a plan and I hope you will share how it goes. One teeny weeny bit at a time :) <br />JaneBookends Farmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11097973354681584986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-7077948254254756842019-02-11T04:05:54.353-08:002019-02-11T04:05:54.353-08:00This was the most interesting I've heard (podc...This was the most interesting I've heard (podcast) and now read for a long time. How lucky for Percy to have you! My horse is not as sensitive as Percy at all, but she does not want to go out in the world. She is 22 now, a gysy cob, and very calm and relaxed at home. I've tried to expand her safety zone, and we've come a teeny, weeny (are those words?) bit further. But this is the most reasonable and best explained way to do it I've ever heard and read! Tonight I'll set up a plan, and tomorrow we will start. Thank you very much! <3 Hilde Ceciliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04861650972111305073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-20507395485463367312019-02-10T18:09:46.449-08:002019-02-10T18:09:46.449-08:00Hi Lisa,
I'll be interested to hear how it go...Hi Lisa,<br /><br />I'll be interested to hear how it goes. Ideally, going to the working space should be reinforcing since once they are there, they get lots of fun interaction. But they are all different so as you say, both approaches could work. You could tell yourself that you will only click and treat a certain number of times on the way to the space, or in certain locations on the way, etc. Those would be ways to build duration.<br /><br />Good luck!<br />JaneBookends Farmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11097973354681584986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-43581718187864100372019-02-10T08:07:37.935-08:002019-02-10T08:07:37.935-08:00Hi Jane,
yes that was exactly what I wanted to kn...Hi Jane,<br /><br />yes that was exactly what I wanted to know, thank you for answering my question. I am currently starting to go for little walks with my horse and I am reinforcing him a lot for walking quietly and released, but that means a lot of stopping and it's hard to build duration. We never get into the "just walk casually" mode as he is always waiting for Click and Treat. So I was thinking of using an approach a bit similar to yours and try to walk casually to a "working space" where we to the foundation lessons or other exercises and slowly put this space more far every time. So he would know that there is walking time and working time.<br /><br />I guess both approaches could work for him as he is already doing really well right now, but would be interesting to try and see the difference!<br /><br />LisaLisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00421553664486420301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-18026896906684253262019-02-10T07:39:11.595-08:002019-02-10T07:39:11.595-08:00Hi Lisa,
Thanks for your comments. I am so glad t...Hi Lisa,<br /><br />Thanks for your comments. I am so glad to hear from others that they are being inspired, in any way, by this. <br /><br />As to your question, when we went to our designated zone of the day, regardless of which day, we just walked casually. Casually meant not dawdling, but not hustling either. It did not involve sniffing or looking around. So, no, I did not stop or click/treat until we got to the zone. It was my way of practicing, "we need to go over here to hand graze or work. We can go from A to B without needing to train or explore our way there". <br /><br />I also want to stress that the hay pillow bag was an environmental cue that meant he could explore. I carried it tucked under my arm until we got to the zone on exploration day. Once we got there, I dropped it on the ground, and he was then free to explore. <br /><br />On non-exploration days, we walked casually out and because foundations always included mat work, that may also have been an environmental cue. I either had it with me (the closer days) or I had walked out with the dogs earlier to plunk it in the zone. But really, when the hay pillow wasn't there, it was more about stimulus control. No hay pillow- I will be guiding you in what we are going to do. <br /><br />Does that answer your questions? If not, please let me know and I'm happy to try again ;)<br /><br />JaneBookends Farmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11097973354681584986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-63195612066443168182019-02-10T07:29:17.265-08:002019-02-10T07:29:17.265-08:00Hi Jane,
After listening to the equiosity podcast...Hi Jane,<br /><br />After listening to the equiosity podcast I got curious and was happy to find the article and pictures and a video of Percy that helped me to imagine the situations that you were describing. It sounds like you built a lot of trust and reliability that made your discovery walks a lot easier for Percy. Thank you so much for sharing this project, I find your approach very interesting and inspiring and think it can be helpful for a lot of horse handlers.<br /><br />One thing I was wondering about was the way from the barn to the zone that you were currently working in. Did you never stop or click and reinforce anything all the way to the new zone? Or were you always walking in the "discovery mode" - grazing and looking around? I was thinking about how you distinguished the way from the actual zone where you asked him for the foundation lessons etc.<br /><br />Thanks again for sharing your experience!<br /><br />LisaLisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00421553664486420301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-48267047339124029212019-02-08T12:37:54.488-08:002019-02-08T12:37:54.488-08:00Hi Katie and thank you.
Wind was a big issue, and ...Hi Katie and thank you.<br />Wind was a big issue, and it always was for his mother as well, as I guess it is for all horses to some extent. It wasn't that a big gust of wind would cause a spook, but rather that windy days had him on edge from the start so that something he might have been able to handle on a still day, would get a reaction on a windy day. <br />As far as whether there were other things which were more likely to result in a reaction, I mentioned the alarm calls of birds. While I guess I had become dulled to the sounds, his reactions heightened my awareness of them. But I'm not sure that I would have noticed them on a day he didn't react to them. <br />I was surprised that traffic never bothered him. It bothers me on an intellectual level in that I'm always afraid a horse will spook into the path of an oncoming car. We didn't have a lot of traffic pass us in the short section of road we traveled, but he was ok when it did. And when we were grazing just off the road, he didn't react to anything. Actually there was one time he did which was interesting because two vehicles came at the same time from opposite directions. We were at the end of the driveway and couldn't see onto the road but could hear them coming. I guess he thought there was only one and did not respond when it popped into view, but then startled when a second later the other one came into view from the other direction. I think he heard them and didn't realize there were two. Just guessing. <br />Another thing which always had me waiting for him to jump and he never did was George! George the cat loved to come join us after we were out working or grazing. Invariably he'd come right up behind Percy and I'd just wait for him to spook when he saw the cat. But he never did! All I can guess is that somehow he was aware of him long before I even was and so it wasn't a surprise. <br />The l/s/s (I like that abbreviation!) did not always decrease over the five days- it depended on the weather. Those were hard for me to push through. It was frustrating when he'd been fine the day before and a cool or breezy day would result in less relaxation on a later day. So it wasn't instant, predictable magic. It was more that he got to see those places, regardless of his reaction, and then on later days walking through them consistently, things were ok. The corner of the driveway remains a place that he needs to keep a lookout!<br />As far as whether he was more on edge after one spook, I'd say it was the opposite. It was more like he was tense just waiting for something to happen, the pressure would build, he'd spook and then calm down. I completely get what you mean with Rosie, though and I'd guess it has more to do with the amount of time we were out. I think the longest I was out was probably 30 minutes and that was on grazing days in the warm summer when I couldn't make myself go in :) Other days it was a shorter period of time. I think if we were out on an hour-long progressive distance, such as a hack, I can see how that tension could build again, especially after the first one. I guess that's a question for this coming summer. (I'm making a list!). <br />And there was that situation when we were going below the house that he consistently spooked on the way back to the barn that had me wondering it I was making any progress after all. That's when I instituted the grazing on the return and much to my delight, I was able to phase that out slowly. <br />thanks for the questions. I read it on my phone when I was out this morning and was able to think about it while driving around. Kept me entertained while driving!Bookends Farmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11097973354681584986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5304406780299180546.post-84779812590549546732019-02-08T07:18:07.264-08:002019-02-08T07:18:07.264-08:00Jane - This is very impressive. I listened to the ...Jane - This is very impressive. I listened to the podcast too and it was great to hear the story in your own words. <br /><br />In the podcast, you mentioned that wind was a big factor. Did you notice anything else, in particular that was more likely to cause a startle or spook? It sounds like the amount of looking/startling/spooking always decreased over the five days. Did you ever feel that he was more on edge after the first l/s/s? <br /><br />I noticed with Rosie that if we were riding out, she could handle one "unexpected event," but if there were two, then it was really too much for her. <br /><br />Thanks, KatieAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15825614813229258914noreply@blogger.com